DKC Atlas Forum

[Qyzbud]

Here is an update.
Changes Made:

Smoothed out the geometry of the face
Adjusted the feet
Added a pink Tungue
changed the lighting a little

In particular what do you think of the face now?

Spoiler!

Excellent work!

• His face looks much nicer now — subtle changes, but very positive.
• Feet are also looking good — true to Rare's early design, which is a plus in my eyes. I think his little toe could stand to be slightly wider/rounder, though.
• The tongue is good, too... although maybe slightly distracting due to how visible it is in his otherwise fairly dark mouth.
• I can also see that you've worked on his pointing finger by tapering the shape a bit without making it any longer; I think it's an improvement, but I'm not sure it's quite perfect yet. Definitely looks a bit less "sausage-like" now, though, which is a good thing.

Nice to see this progress — he's getting pretty close to a perfect likeness.

[Cyclone]

Small update. Added ridge to face so it's more like the reference. Also widened the small toe. Still some fur issues....

[Qyzbud]

A very subtle change to the toe, but it's certainly an improvement. Looks good now.

I'm not sure about the ridge under his snout... it looks okay, and I think it's fairly accurate to the reference art, but my eyes prefer the smoother look. I'm not saying you should change it back (it's probably an improvement, after all), but I just thought I'd share my initial impressions.

[Cyclone]

Thanks for the comments Qyzbud. But what I don't understand is I thought we were going with the old school Diddy look. That's why I added the ridge. I do prefer the smoother look but wanted to stay true to the original artwork also.

Need some other opinions everyone. What do you think about the ridge?
Once I commit there no turning back due to technical reasons.
Thanks in advance.

Reference

Spoiler!

[Qyzbud]

Thanks for the comments Qyzbud. But what I don't understand is I thought we were going with the old school Diddy look. That's why I added the ridge. I do prefer the smoother look but wanted to stay true to the original artwork also.

Aye, it must be frustrating to hear me say that, after making such a fuss about authenticity... so please, take that feedback with a pinch of salt.

Either way looks good, so go with what feels right.

[Phyreburnz]

Personally, I think the ridge looks fine. There are two major things that are bothering me, his feet and his hands. The arch of his foot goes in way to far, I think. And his hands just look a bit awkward, almost like a chunk is missing. And if he's supposed to have that thumb like toe sticking out of the side, I don't see it... it just looks like an arch that's in way too far. You should look at your own hand for reference, because monkey hands are incredibly similar to human hands. Specifically, it really looks like he has an extra finger. His hand gets really, really wide by the pinky. It looks like if you were to remove his pinky, his hand would look normal. The rest of his fingers need to move over so it looks like his pinky isn't just kind of thrown on and attached to the side of his hand.

[Qyzbud]

if he's supposed to have that thumb like toe sticking out of the side, I don't see it... it just looks like an arch that's in way too far.

I guess that's one of the problems with trying to work from (and closely resemble) a reference that has fundamental structural differences:



Rare's Diddy never had that opposable toe, so it's going to be very tricky to incorporate it without straying too far from their design. I believe Cyclone can do it, but it'll certainly take some clever modelling.

[sonosublime]

Diddy is looking very nice, but Phyreburnz has a point about the hands. Re the face, both models look good, but I personally like the ridge a bit more.

And that banana hoard scene is looking awesome. However, I envisioned the cave being darker, and lots of Kremling shadows being visible everywhere when lightning flashes.

[Cyclone]

Phyreburnz would you be able to draw a pic of your vision of the hand? The idea was to keep 5 digits but make it also look like rare's artwork. What do you mean "a chunk is missing" ? The extra toe was changed to look like the reference. Take a look at it.

Small Changes. Better Phyreburnz?

Diddy65(handCamparison).png (96.5 KiB) Viewed 91876 times

PS
I'm about running out of steam with Diddy. So hopefully we can get these flaws fixed soon. I still appreciate the feedback though.

[Phyreburnz]

Here is what I'm talking about when I say it looks like a chunk is missing:

diddy foot.png (33.71 KiB) Viewed 91872 times

The curve of his foot goes in too far.

I've done a (very quick) sketch of my own hand. Sorry for the crappy quality of the image, but the drawing should help out with the proportions of Diddy's hand.

Spoiler!

hand.jpg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 91872 times

As far as looking at a reference of Diddy's hand, this image may help.

[Cyclone]

I adjusted the hands and feet some(not the pointer hand though).
Is this better Phyreburnz?

It may not look that smooth but that is because of the lighting(its in a different pose then the bottom render).

[Phyreburnz]

It looks better, but can you shift his wrist over closer to his pinky or make his wrist slightly bigger?

[Cyclone]

I have been playing around with the pose. Turning the rig upside down was a bit tricky. Over the next few days or longer I will be experimenting with different poses and refine the hair and rig. That way it should all be good for animating.

What do you think?
It looks rough right now need to do skinning adjustments...

[Qyzbud]

That looks awesome! It's great to see him busting his signature move.

I'll take a closer look when I get home, but at first glance, he looks all good except for maybe his chest/armpit shape. If that's just due to gravity/movement causing his shirt to wrinkle, then don't worry about it!

In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

Anyhow, excellent work — it's going to be magnificent to see the little guy in action.

[Cyclone]

Is this what you were referring to about the shirt?
The shirt is just on object with no cloth simulation. It's going to be tricky and cpu intensive to do the simulation.
Also does his left hand planted on the ground look awkward?

Fixed Shirt, minor hair fixes

[Cyclone]

Here is another classic pose with Diddy jumping. The rig so far seems to be working ok.
I have to address the hands, do some skinning adjustments but this what i have so far.

[Cyclone]

Here is an update on the hands in the jumping pose.
Question. Would you rather me post less often with more progress between posts or keep posting the way I have been? Don't want to bore you guys.

Spoiler!

Cartwheel animation will be next a think. Is there Diddy cartwheel animation available. Simion? Maybe it won't be useful to use in game reference. hmm

[Qyzbud]

Would you rather me post less often with more progress between posts or keep posting the way I have been?

Personally, I really enjoy seeing your daily progress; it's probably the best way to give us a chance to provide helpful feedback, too.

Is this what you were referring to about the shirt?

Spoiler!

I'm honestly not sure which version I prefer, but I think the original (smoother) look is probably nicer. I noticed you trimmed some hair from the back of his head and his... er... throat, too.

The shirt is just on object with no cloth simulation. It's going to be tricky and cpu intensive to do the simulation.

Thankfully, I doubt think cloth simulation will be necessary — a few keyframes here and there should be fine, I would think.

[...] does his left hand planted on the ground look awkward?

Perhaps a little, but I think it'll always look a bit awkward — no matter how well you do it — just due to the nature of that pose/action. That said, you could possibly improve the way it looks by adjusting his wrist joint a little; if his hand was shifted slightly to the left in this picture, I think it'd look a little more natural, and would feel more connected to his arm. It doesn't look bad as it is, but this might help.

To further "connect" the hand/arm, the fur on his wrist could also be brushed toward the hand a little, perhaps?

Honestly, it's hard to provide a worthwhile critique... more often than not, it's something that I can't quite place that seems to be making things not look quite right. What you have created (and continue to create) is excellent, though.

Is there Diddy cartwheel animation available [...]

I'd be happy to whip one up, if you'd like? Do you think it'd be more useful to have an animation where diddy moves across the frame as he cartwheels, or one where he just cartwheels on the spot?

[Cyclone]

Thanks for the detailed feedback Qyzbud.

Here is an awfull atemped at a cartwheel. I never attempted anything like this before. I'm more of a modeler then an animator.



A rendered version of Diddy(w/out fur) will be uploaded in about an hour. With lots of flaws...

[Qyzbud]

You had me ready for something awful, but that animation is quite nice.

With a bit more speed, and with Diddy covering a bit more ground with the movement (plus of course the model rendering), I think that'll look pretty decent.

[Cyclone]

Well here it is. As you can see there are skinning issues,keyframing issues and his hat goes through the ground.
How to fix the hat. hmmm.

[Qyzbud]

Hmm... the animation actually looks less natural to me now.

It's definitely going to be a tricky task to get this just right... hopefully a close study of his in-game cartwheel animation will gradually help you improve the balance, fluidity and general movement involved. Unfortunately, I don't have any specific tips to offer besides paying close attention to the way it looks on the SNES.

[Cyclone]

This should look better. He jumps a bit at the start. Due to his proportions its hard to get the movement right and the twisting of all the joints.

Any major areas that look weird?

[Simion32]

You're totally missing it, unfortunately.

Look at Diddy in DKC and see how he extends his arms.

He should look like he's rolling around with his arms attached to a cylinder before stopping, not like this.

[Cyclone]

Simion would you be able to provide a slow motion animated gif of Diddy's cartwheel starting with his slow walking pose? Thanks!

[Qyzbud]

I agree with Simion. Honestly, this looks like a step backwards in animation accuracy/quality; the animation was stilted and unbalanced before, but now he also twists and contorts without much logic to his movements.

Here's a slow motion (5fps) walk/cartwheel/idle GIF for reference:

Diddy-walk+cartwheel-animation.gif (26.06 KiB) Viewed 91611 times

It looks a bit jerky at this speed, but all of the frames are there, so hopefully it will help you capture the motion.

If you would like a faster or slower version, just let me know.

[sonosublime]

I agree that the first animation attempts at a cartwheel (posted on Dec 8) were more accurate.

[Cyclone]

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Qyzbud.

[Jeffrey_Bones]

Cyclone..... use mine as a reference. PS: never did get those Gnawty renders from you

[Cyclone]

^That looks much more fluent then my version.

Here is my 3rd attempt at the cartwheel using the in game reference. Simion am I still missing it? " rolling around with his arms attached to a cylinder" I think it's more like what you were saying.

[Simion32]

A little bit more like it, but nowhere near as smooth. Still needs work.

[Cyclone]

Here is a revision. Should be smoother now. I know it's not perfect so what areas stick out the most that need more work and how should it look if so?



Thanks.

[Simion32]

Needs to be with him more facing towards the camera, and he shouldn't be hitting his hands hard during the first part of the move.

you'd probably have better luck if you made an animation by trying to duplicate each frame of the sprite animation and linking those together *with him animating in-place* (if you can do that...)

[Qyzbud]

Simion's suggestion of keyframing Diddy's animation by replicating his pose from each in-game frame sounds like a good tip to me.

The animation Jeffrey_Bones shared is nice, but I wouldn't say it's a particularly close match for Diddy's actual technique.

[Cyclone]

Needs to be with him more facing towards the camera, and he shouldn't be hitting his hands hard during the first part of the move.

you'd probably have better luck if you made an animation by trying to duplicate each frame of the sprite animation and linking those together *with him animating in-place* (if you can do that...)

which of his hands hits hard? Also I have been trying to key frame the poses of the animated gif but its kinda hard when its constantly looping.

Edit. Anymore tips on areas like the rotation of his hips, movements of the legs/hands/feet and arms would particularly be useful. Thanks

[Qyzbud]

I have been trying to key frame the poses of the animated gif but its kinda hard when its constantly looping.

You've got Photoshop, right? Check out the spoilered guide on this post in the DKC-Related Custom Animations topic — that ought to help.

[Cyclone]

To quote a user on a forum.

The Video Frames To Layers option isn’t available in the 64-bit version of CS4. You have to run the 32-bit version for this task. I know. Weird.

now lets see if I still have the 32bit version installed. I don't think I installed it...

Edit. Nope I don't. grr that would have been so helpfull.

[Qyzbud]

That's okay; here's a PSD for you (zipped for significant bandwidth savings):

[Cyclone]

found this site. http://gif-explode.com/ works good. If you look at the index sheet there are some weird frames at the end.

DiddyCartWheelindex.png (1.39 KiB) Viewed 91498 times

I'm willing to give the animation one more attempt...go frame by frame with the gif. As you probably noticed animation isn't my thing. Never animated anything like this before. Even in my animation class.

Edit*again thanks Qyz for the gif.

[Qyzbud]

No problem.

GIF Explode sounds like a handy option — thanks for the info.

Animation is obviously a very challenging task; it's one thing to be able to model, pose and render (actually it's three things — or many more, depending how you look at it ), but constructing a convincing animation for as complex a model as Diddy (who basically has five separate limbs, if you count his tail) is another discipline entirely.

Hopefully you don't get too frustrated, and can see this as an opportunity to grow your skillset.

[Cyclone]

It took awhile but I think the animation is a lot smoother now. Still a few areas to tweak and it should look better with fur. The ending of the animation is not the same as the in game version. That will change depending on how I use the animation in the final project.

What do you think?

[Qyzbud]

This does seem to be an improvement, but it's still far from the quick, smooth motion Diddy's cartwheel usually has. Even at 2x speed (via the YouTube speed setting) I get more of an impression of a brief, awkward, sideways-initiated/terminated handstand than a dynamic, believable cartwheel.

Did you keyframe the animation from the sprite reference? I would've expected a much more familiar looking sequence if you had.

If you speed up his rotation significantly, and smooth some more of the somewhat jerky/robotic movements, it might be a closer match to the source.

[Cyclone]

This does seem to be an improvement, but it's still far from the quick, smooth motion Diddy's cartwheel usually has. Even at 2x speed (via the YouTube speed setting) I get more of an impression of a brief, awkward, sideways-initiated/terminated handstand than a dynamic, believable cartwheel.

I see what you mean. Does this look more like a cartwheel? I made the rotation faster and quickly changed the ending(not finished). I do plan on smoothing it out. And yes I did 'try' to use the original frames.



There isn't much more I can really do with it. My animating skill is very poor. I hope that doesn't disappoint those you are hoping for a quality animation...

[sonosublime]

It's a good effort. I reckon you just need more practice. Animating is hard to do.

If you want to improve the animation of the film, perhaps you could collaborate with an animator, by providing them with the models, etc. Just a suggestion.

[Cyclone]

It's a fine suggestion I just like to do things myself if I can. The script was different, as I'm not good with ideas.

Qyzbud + others do you think this latest revision looks more like an attack cartwheel now?
Any major areas in particular looking off? The ending is still weird looking.

[Qyzbud]

I think you're gradually improving the overall look of the animation, so that's good news.

I know it's a difficult thing to do with a limited viewport and a plain background, but it would be great if you could give the impression of Diddy having more forward momentum as he launches into the cartwheel; Diddy's supposed to be quick and agile, so I think that would help a lot to give us a feel for his movement, and the animation in general. To help achieve this, do you suppose you could "zoom out" a bit, so that we can see Diddy move further across the stage?

[Cyclone]

That was a good suggestion. I made the hip to consitantly move horizontaly during the animation. Is that what you were thinking? Its less like the original art but I think it looks better. Maybe diddy stops too suddenly at the end.

I do plan on fixing up the twisting of the joints and the feet/hands so they don't look warped and twisted.
Edit- I was told the animation looks choppy. Another thing to fix...
Play on you tube. Playback is much smoother.


Thanks again and a Happy New Years to all!

[Qyzbud]

Sorry for the pointless feedback here, but I can barely make out any difference at all between your last two videos.

I think the consistent rotational movement speed of his hip area (I think that's what you were referring to) makes the animation look a tiny bit more fluid, which is good... but I think I'll have a hard time appreciating or critiquing your efforts until some/all of the joint twisting, etc., is fixed.

Happy New Year to you, too! 2014 will be the year you take your animating skills to the next level!

[sonosublime]

Always looking forward to your next update, Cyclone.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/9ix9d ... 5B7%5D.pdf

That is the link to an updated version of the script. After doing some reading about screenplay formatting, I realised my original formatting was way off. I fixed it up, and also made some minor revisions to dialogue, sluglines, etc. Not very big changes, but if I'm going to do something, I like to do it properly.

[Cyclone]

Always looking forward to your next update, Cyclone.

Thanks. Here is a small update. I made the cartwheel noticably smoother(at least to me) and less 'twisty'. Still need a bit of work but there isn't much more I can really improve. I think it will look much better with the fur that should cover up some modeling/joint flaws I hope.

Any major/minor areas stick out?



Thanks again. And Qyzbud your feed back isn't pointless.