DKC Atlas Forum

[Simion32]

Awesome, and my favorite part about it is... 8 PLAYERS!!!
Unlike 2 players like the original DKC, and I got more questions about Delta.
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1. I heard that you will fix the physics of Winky, will you keep the original physics too?
2. How good would delta run at 320x240? (Which is the resolution I want to make my games in.)
3. Will synonymously playing be possible? kinda like DKC Returns or NSMB Wii.

Don't worry, the engine is now in its very early infancy. I'm just now getting the code together that will prove a tile testbed and display some debug sprites (of DK).

1. Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the layering problems of the walkways tileset? That's already fixed.
2. It's not much larger than the original game, and thus will probably run just as good.
3. What, like having objects do actions synced to the music? Hmm.... I'm not sure about that one, but it could probably be done using events and a custom object that fires the necessary event on the proper frames.

[Markster]

What I meant by Winky is Winky the Frogs movement physics, it has some problems in the original.
And on 3, I mean the amount of players, like having Diddy, Donkey, etc. moving around at the same time.

[Simion32]

I'm not sure about Winky's physics, but I'll be doing the original version first (remember - accuracy first) and then later I could have a look at it to see what could be done.

As for simultaneous movement, that is possible simply by making each kong playable by a different player ID. It really is just one parameter away. All I do is add another parameter to the code that's calling the input functions, and it can go to any of the 8 players...

This specification is not final but:
Basic Input:

int key(int key, int player); // state (is pressed?)
int qkey(int key, int player); // quad-state (none, down, hold, up)
int dqkey(int key, int player); // quad-state with double click flag

int btn(int button, int player); // state (is pressed?)
int qbtn(int button, int player); // quad-state (none, down, hold, up)
int dqbtn(int button, int player); // quad-state with double click flag

Advanced Input:
unsigned int keytime(int key, int player); // Time since last press.
unsigned int btntime(int button, int player); // Time since last press.

string keytext(bool formatting, int player); // Used for text input!
string btntext(int player); // Used for cheat combos!

int gameclickx(int player); // Last click X position.
int gameclicky(int player); // Last click Y position.

Utilities:
int akey(int player); // Get first pressed key
int abtn(int player); // Get first pressed button

string keyname(int key); // What is the name of this key?
string btnname(int key); // What is the name of this button?

int btnkey(int button, int player); // Get key that's assigned to this button.

Note that in the input functions, key refers to the physical control that you have to press or activate on the hardware. The term button or btn refers to the virtual gamepad button that the user configured. It is recommended to use the btn variants for game input, and only use the others if you need raw text input or advanced controls (for debugging, perhaps).

Also, since we're looking at C++ functions here, P1 is the value 0, not 1.

[HellFire]

Finally I had time to test this new version. As I said to you via pm, I can not test with my old ps1 joystick cuz I don't have it anymore, but I tested with my new USB stick and it works OK, I could map the buttons with no problems. Nice detail at the barral thing, made me smile by the way I found an bug though, whenever I go to config -> input -> P1 it always crashes, I can open all player tabs but P1, everytime I try to open it it says the program must terminate.

[Simion32]

That's really strange. Too bad I can't tell where the crash is coming from, I'd try to fix it.

EDIT: Try to delete the *.xdq file and try to reconfigure the controls.

You must have detected a mouse and keyboard to get to the dialog, could there could be issues with that...?

EDIT 2: Double-click the *.xdq file and see if it crashes when you open it like that.

[HellFire]

I've deleted the .xdq file, opened the program again, did the space+right click thing, went to config -> input -> P1 and it crashed again.
Then I opened the file via double clicking, tried to open the P1 tab and the same happened crashed again.

[Markster]

Hey, I finally got to test DELTA with my SNES controller through a SNES to USB 2.0 converter, and it works, it detects button pressing.

[Simion32]

The only thing I can think of is that some index is going out of bounds, but I'm not entirely sure what.

It HAS to be related to the P1 tab, but there really isn't that much different about the tab. Hmm.....

Hey, I finally got to test DELTA with my SNES controller through a SNES to USB 2.0 converter, and it works, it detects button pressing.

Wow, that's great. can you press two directions at once on the D-Pad, or does it only allow one at a time?

[Markster]

It does two!

[Simion32]

The SNES controller has an 8-directional pad?!

Wow, that's news to me. I guess the design will have to take note of this little gem of information.

EDIT: HellFire, I have a test build coming to try to solve your crash issue. I found some very strange initialization stuff that MIGHT have been the crash.

[WAZ__Up]

I think he is refering to Down-left (Diagnals) I dont think it can do left-right or up-down. Using a diagnal combo was actual required in the game "Batman Forever" to do special moves.

[Simion32]

(test link removed)

[Ninni973]

Simion, how long is it gonna take to finish DELTA? It's a long time since you started working on it. I wish I could time travel so I can use it.

[HellFire]

OK I already tested it, it doesn't crashes anymore but thats because you cutted a lot of stuff from it right? There is nothing in the main window (excluding some green text) and in the player configuration tabs theres nothing as well.

[Simion32]

As I expected, the "weird initialization stuff" mentioned a few posts up was the problem.

The reason this release has a blank screen is because I am preparing to put in graphics - that's right, level tile graphics!

Wait a second... nothing in the tabs?

HOLD UP, re-release coming. Something is wrong with the drawing code!

[Ninni973]

When you finish DELTA, I can't wait to play as Woody in Tree Top Town!

Why is it taking so long to finish DELTA, Simion32?

[HellFire]

Yeah take a look, nothing in the tabs:

Spoiler!

(Didnt noticed your edit)

[Simion32]

(test link removed)

Why is it taking so long to finish DELTA, Simion32?

Because I'm the only one programming this and it's not as easy as thinking it up out of thin air...

[HellFire]

Bad news... it still crashes, and only on the P1 tab.

Wouldn't be better to do this conversation via PMs or some IM? I fell like I'm spaming/flooding in here.

[Simion32]

Since it did NOT crash before, and it now crashes with the drawing fixed (which makes it enabled) then I can only conclude we have a NULL variable somewhere that is attempting to be drawn. Time for some checking code....

Discussion regarding HellFire's problem has been taken to PMs.

[Markster]

Why are those links removed?

[Simion32]

Incremental test builds, they are being replaced over the same file name but with very minimal changes (same version number).

You'll get a first-post permanent link once this problem is fixed.

[Markster]

Here is how DELTA runs on my computer
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DELTA Game Engine runs fine for me, I tested many things that need to be tested, like game controller configuration, it works great, even the 8 direction d-pad movement works, it does not only run good on my computer, but it even looks good, I can't wait to play DELTA, I hope game-play updates will come soon.
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And I got more questions.
1. How good would DELTA run on a Solid-state drive?
2. What game controller would you recommend for DELTA?
3. In DKCLB, are you planning any special graphic features, like palette changing in game-play or something?

[Simion32]

1. Will only decrease loading times, probably comparable to a Velociraptor 10,000rpm HDD.
2. I always recommend the PS2 clones like the Logitech Dual Action USB Gamepad:

Spoiler!

3. This one's going to be hard to do without eating memory (since DELTA uses 32bit graphics, not palette based), I'll see what I can do. It'll require some advanced graphics stuff.

[Simion32]

Progress Update: DELTA now viewing tiles!!

DELTA viewing VideoViking's Army Assault testbed.
Extracted from a test IPS using DKCRE, of course.

DELTAv006B_ViewTilesArmyAssualt.png (47.81 KiB) Viewed 201854 times

[Joshy]

Really fantastic work so far Simion, glad to see all this progression on the engine.

Any idea on what type of sound encoding the engine will support? (.ogg, .mp3, .wav, etc.)
How many layers will be available to render sprites on? The same amount as DKC or will you possibly add more? (As in the backgrounds, middle-grounds, and foregrounds) It would be cool to have layers where animated sprites could be drawn across the screen like snow etc.
Is it possible that you could add an autoscrolling effect like this achieved in SMW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47SyjmNuQg0

Great work so far, keep it up.

[Markster]

Awesome, DELTA with Nitro GUI can now display tiles, now I want to download a beta of this.
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And Joshy, what do you think the whole DELTA thing is being made for, to make unlimited possibilities to a remade DKC, of course you can add more than the regular amount of backgrounds from the original, and if you wanna really make sure, then let Simion32 (The creator of all this) tell you.

[Simion32]

Markster is right.

Also, I've stated numerous times that:
DELTA uses WinAMP plugins so you can play virtually any music format if there's a plugin for it!

[Joshy]

And Joshy, what do you think the whole DELTA thing is being made for, to make unlimited possibilities to a remade DKC, of course you can add more than the regular amount of backgrounds from the original, and if you wanna really make sure, then let Simion32 (The creator of all this) tell you.

Yeah, that's why I asked. I originally thought the engine was under development to help churn butter, my mistake.

I'll save any questions I have since this engine is full of "unlimited possibilities", how silly of me to think to think there will be limitations with the engine.

[WAZ__Up]

Lets not be disrespectful now. You too markster, that was a little uncalled for.

[Markster]

I was not trying to be disrespectful to people, if I sounded disrespectful then I am sorry.

[WAZ__Up]

Have you ever tried contacting anybody from Rare about this project to maybe collect some knowledge into how some parts of this game are handled?

[Simion32]

No, and I wouldn't, because I would most likely get sued...

Guess what? The object plugin system is underway. And boy oh boy, is the DLL link code complicated. But this behind-the-scenes complexity will make it easier for you end users to work with, I can assure you that.

In fact, you won't even need to do much more than opening the default template, and start coding your object.

You just need an editor/compiler (recommend Code::Blocks, comes with everything you need), and the template, and that's basically it.

--Custom objects will have forwards DELTA compatibility.
--DELTA only loads the DLL one time, saving memory and other resources.
--It's super easy for others to make their own objects.

[Markster]

It has been a week, and still no word about DELTA Game Engine or Donkey Kong Country Level Builder, how progress been going?

[Simion32]

I'm still deep into getting the DLL system set up. It is literally the core of the engine (other than physics), and the most important thing to get right.

I'm having to create my own string class because there is no other way to guarantee that a DLL and DELTA can pass text back and forth to each other. They must be using the EXACT SAME version of the string class for it to be able to work. This is quite obviously instrumental in detecting cheats and text input.

Cheats are going to be super easy to detect:

// Declare this variable in the header file
// so that it's part of each "sprite":
cheatbuffer barralcheat;

// In CustomObject::Construct(), set up the cheat,
// using button codes to describe the button combo:
barralcheat.setcheat("BARRAL");

// Do this stuff inside the CustomObject::Proc() method:
barralcheat.getinput(); // Be sure to call this, or nothing happens!
if( barralcheat.activated() )
{
// player cheated!! Do something here...
}

The DLL interface is still unfinished, and may change drastically during the first builds of DELTA that use this interface.

I won't be releasing the object build files just yet, but when I do you'll get a chance to look at what drives a custom object.
(and yes, the custom object DLL stuff is pretty much completely open source by definition anyway)

[Markster]

Does this mean custom objects will come in a early build.

[Simion32]

Yes, with the following DLL COMPATIBILITY WARNING:

You are using a non-final version of the DELTA custom object API.
Any custom objects built using this source code release might not be compatible with the next revision or release of DELTA.


But of course, you'll be able to experiment around with custom objects almost immediately. DELTA probably will only load a specific DLL file and run off of pre-extracted data during the first handful of debug builds, since the full loader system has yet to be established (and its code is going to be quite complex, I might add).

[Markster]

I guess when I build custom objects, I will just make a new version of my custom object everytime a new version of Delta comes out.

[Simion32]

You'll only need to rebuild them during the first few builds, when the API is still being heavily modified.

Once it reaches a certain point, the DLLs will be "permanently" forwards compatible.

[HellFire]

Hey Simion, in the future when DKCLB is usable and people start doing levels for it, do you plan to create a level repository or something like that? Like, a website containing download links for all that stuff? I think that is a good idea, dunno if you already thought about that.

[Simion32]

Well, I do have the DKCLB web addresses reserved already for when the time comes to make the website (http://www.subwaresoft.com/ , http://www.dkclb.com/).

Special Notes: For custom objects and other DLL files, you must submit only the changed code files to be moderated. It will then be inspected for code viruses and if it's OK, approved for the public to see, at which time it would be built into a DLL by ...probably myself... and posted to the custom objects database. This is to prevent bad stuff from getting in the site. I won't put up or run pre-built DLL files because they could contain anything.

By the way, including <windows.h>, doing any file IO, doing system calls, or modifying the DLL's delta code or headers is considered suspicious behavior and will likely get your custom object rejected.

So there is the rule, that if you want your DLL up on the DKCLB site, you must submit source code and it must be open source.

[Markster]

Once DELTA is done and the site is up, I will sign up so that I can upload custom DELTA/DKCLB objects to the site, and will you also have DELTA games on the site?

[Simion32]

Yes, there will be a game section too. Subject to DLL moderation as usual. Music, I'm not sure about on account of several factors (the "napster" problem, and file sizes too).

Don't expect this to happen anytime soon, as I'm just now getting started with DELTA. It will indeed be a while before we have full-blown editing capability.

Also, it has come to my attention during the design of the DLL APIs that I need to provide users a way of making their own NGUI dialog, so that objects can have custom properties dialogs. Also, the same goes for editing code, the stuff that would allow you to edit (say) barrel cannon shots by a click-and-drag method. This ALL has to be in the DLL with the rest of the object. Doing it any other way does not make sense.

Moreover, considerations are required regarding the data that is saved to level files for each object - that's even more API functionality that will have to be made available.

The scope is truly massive, and I'm basically building the "development road map" as I go, with intermittent planning along the way...

[Scraps69]

Forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question. Are we able to import hacks (.smc such as DKC Reloaded) into this and then continue making edits with all the new variables?

[Simion32]

The technical awnser is a yes, since you can extract levels from something that's not an original DKC ROM - but this must be done explicitly using some option that I have yet to devise, so that original-level conflicts are avoided.

[Simion32]

Progress Update: DLL loader now works!!

Man, the code it took to accomplish this is really cool, not to mention very complicated. I almost had to bend a few rules of C++, but managed to scrape by without doing so. Also, the new string class, dubbed dstring, has been completed to a functional state (the search functionality is sorta broken though, for reasons unknown).

DELTA_DLL_Loader_WORKING.png (41.76 KiB) Viewed 201579 times

If you're wondering which files you'll be involved with, from that screenshot... you only need to look in object.cpp and object.h. The rest of the code is for communication with DELTA and those files don't need to be messed with (in fact, you SHOULDN'T because doing so will/can cause innumerable weird, fatal crashes).

Code::Blocks and GCC (comes with it) will handle all the other build stuff for you automatically.

This is a very major technical achievement. The DLL loader is the basis for almost everything else DKCLB will be capable of in the future!

[Simion32]

Delta Game Engine v0.0.6.B r70
YOU TEST THIS PROGRAM AT YOUR OWN RISK.

>>> DOWNLOAD LATEST VERSION HERE <<<

• The DLL Loader Working!
• All controls are detected from inside the test DLL, not the DELTA exe.
• Camera debug mode using said controls.

DEBUG CAMERA CONTROLS:
L + D-Pad (Gamepad)------Moves you around by 8 whole pixels per frame.
D-Pad (Gamepad)----------Moves you around by 1 whole pixel per frame.
ABXY (Gamepad)-----------Moves you around by 8/256ths of a pixel at a time.
Arrow Keys (Keyboard)---Moves you around by 1/256ths of a pixel at a time.

L2/R2 (Gamepad)----------Adjusts the camera smoothing ammount.

BARRAL (Gamepad)--------Buggy cheat checker, doesn't always work.

There is no focus map yet, so the camera is completely unbounded. It'll go anywhere at the moment.

[Markster]

Bug!
----------
On the camera debug test, when I press Right + Down to move the camera Southeast, when I release, it keeps going down by itself.

[Simion32]

Does it do that continuously, or does it eventually stop? I don't seem to see any buggy behavior here...

Remember, there is CAMERA SMOOTHING. The camera is supposed to slide based on that value in the [] brackets up top in green text.

[WAZ__Up]

I just wanted to make a mention of something I noticed, when running delta in the smaller window size, when i click on Config or the other option, my mouse disappears and reappears randomly (flickers). this only seems to happen when the dropdown box is opened, not when the config box is opened. It seems to happen less severely in the maximized window but it still does happen. The curse also becomes somewhat dimmer when moving it around any time.