DKC Atlas Forum

[Simion32]

Hey Qyzbud, I have a few small suggestions/advice for your grid display system.

---The first tile in the level should be displayed as 0,0 not 1,1. The same goes for the X/Y position of the mouse cursor. Everything in-game (in all DKC's) starts counting at 0 instead of 1.
---Also, another small (but more insignificant) quirk to take note of is that DKC counts its Y positions from the bottom-up, not top-down like the other DKC's do. Although, I'm sure that DKC's reversed Y axis won't really matter unless you're trying to use the LMV as a hacking reference.

This is mostly technical stuff, but I thought I'd let you know so that you can determine what level of positioning accuracy is needed.

[Qyzbud]

Thanks for the suggestions. Having the first tile be 0:0 shouldn't be any less useful for casual map users, and if it's true to the game positioning logic, it would definitely be more useful for hacking... I'll modify the tile/screen coords as you suggested, and I guess I ought to do the same for the pixel coordinates. As for DKC's reversed Y-axis; I'll see what I can do about that. When I get working on the development of user customisable settings, I may be able to let each user view each aspect of a map (and the LMV interface) just how they want; eg. Overlay's on by default, no BG/FG graphics by default, etc.

While I've got you thinking about the level coordinates and whatnot... Do you think the tile/screen coords ought to be in hex rather than decimal? I suppose this is even more of a user's-choice kind of thing. Hex probably wouldn't make much sense to the average non-technical user.

[gamer_boy997]

How come the single bananas aren't animated? (Sorry if you posted why, but I missed it)

EDIT: Nevermind, I looked at previous posts, and it turns out you need to use the fancy, "banana formula" that Simion32 posted, which could take longer.

[Qyzbud]

Basically I haven't animated bananas because (like everything else I've animated so far) they have to be individually positioned... and there are so darn many of them. So it's sort of 'prioritisation' on my part (or laziness, I suppose you could say). Also, they all do the same thing, so there's little value in providing unique info for each banana, which is something I plan to provide for individually positioned objects (the ability to provide such object info is my main reason for individually positioning objects). Basically, although it would look good, I've decided that it's not worth the time investment at this stage. If I find myself with a whole lot of spare time, and nothing else to do, animated bananas might become a reality.

[TheUltimateKoopa]

Has anything towards the level mapping been done since June 10th (the last post)?

[TheUltimateKoopa]

So, basically what your saying is, the atlas level mapping project has permanently ceased? Because the fact that no one has posted in this thread since June seems to suggest that.

[Qyzbud]

This topic's activity doesn't necessarily indicate how active the work being done on the level mapping project is. At the moment, all is quiet, but I tend to work away behind the scenes a lot without posting about it. As much as I enjoy level mapping, I've started to find it increasingly tedious and frustrating on my aging computer gear. As a result, I've been taking a break while I get my new studio set up... Once I've built my new PC and set it up with dual HD monitors I'll get back into mapping.

The Atlas level mapping project won't cease until it's complete... and I have lots of new ideas to incorporate yet.

[TheUltimateKoopa]

It just seems like 5 months or so since the last new map was up. And can you confirm whether the DKL series is a possibility? Of course we have a full Red Wharf and Sea-bed Shanty from Blaziken57.

[Qyzbud]

You're quite right; it has been a long while since the last map was added. Indeed the same is true for site updates in general... Let's look at this as 'the calm before the storm' where development activity is concerned.

DKL will likely be covered at some point - both in the mapping project, and potentially by having a 'DKL trilogy' atlas on the site hub.

[GladiatorGr]

you are missing the warp barrels in Vulture Culture and in Millstone Mayhem.

[TheUltimateKoopa]

Only the Vulture Culture one is missing.

[TheUltimateKoopa]

So remind me (if you haven't already) -- has any form of work towards maps even crossed your minds? It's been probably a year now since the last update, and I was thinking either you're actually doing the maps all at once and then will add them at once, OR, you're not doing anything at all. I think you should continue doing this, as I think the "calm before the storm" thing died out.

[Qyzbud]

I definitely think about the Atlas and mapping project almost every day... since my last post here (Sept 15th) I have moved house twice, worked three jobs (10 hour days, typically), fallen in love, and moved in with the new love of my life. These things have all taken considerable time/energy away from my work here, and of course the development progress has suffered significantly. Everything has begun to settle down again now, and it looks as though I'll have the time and energy to launch back into site/forum/mapping development once more. Most importantly, my motivation is getting back on track... I'm thinking I have Retro Studios to thank for that - at least in part.

Looks like the calm is over... prepare for the storm!

[BlueTronic]

It's the return of the Qyz!

So... Hooray for having a life then, eh?
We got bombarded with spambots while you were away. We couldn't stop them, because the only way was to put up a CAPTCHA for registration. Will you ever be able to get your remix finished for the project now I wonder? We strarted a DKC hacking project in your absence also.

[gamer_boy997]

I definitely think about the Atlas and mapping project almost every day... since my last post here (Sept 15th) I have moved house twice, worked three jobs (10 hour days, typically), fallen in love, and moved in with the new love of my life. These things have all taken considerable time/energy away from my work here, and of course the development progress has suffered significantly. Everything has begun to settle down again now, and it looks as though I'll have the time and energy to launch back into site/forum/mapping development once more. Most importantly, my motivation is getting back on track... I'm thinking I have Retro Studios to thank for that - at least in part.

Looks like the calm is over... prepare for the storm!

Yes! Finally! I was worried that this site would end up in the graveyard. Looks like it will finally be revived. Woohoo!

by the way, when DKCR comes out, are thinking about adding it to the level mapping project as well?

[Tiptup Jr.]

strarted

Anyway, Qyz is back! Teh worlds are rejoicing.

[Simion32]

Atlas lies dormant once again.

ANYWAY, I noticed this (new?) page: http://www.dkc-atlas.com/maps

It's HORRIBLY out-of-order. What on earth happened here, a PHP script going nuts?

[Jomingo]

Wow, that is definitely not in order. That's probably why we weren't supposed to find it yet.

[DK4Ever]

My eyes?

"Yeap. I think I found yer problem, sir. This here maps page is all dun tangley'd up."

"I know that, but how do I fix it?"

"Hell if I know, I don't know how to run one o' them fancy fansite things"

Yeah, that page is all kinds of mess. I think you stumbled upon the Lost World of DKC-Atlas.

(We found Simion's hiding spot, now we have to be careful not to scare him away)

[Jomingo]

Oh... you have no idea...

[Simion32]

Checked out the level map viewer in Oil Drum Alley... the button's behavior is inconsistent, I somehow managed to permanently disable the terrain layer. Also, what's with the transparent sprites when I turn off the sprite layer? Furthermore, there's another "sprite" layer in the Terrain buttons.

The level map viewer seems to be broken, and we need an update... Qyz!!!

[gamer_boy997]

I have a funny feeling Qyzbud has something interesting planned for us.

[Qyzbud]

I do indeed - many interesting things, actually! I must stop procrastinating and make the magic happen... well my New Years resolution of 'at least one update every week' may have fallen by the wayside, but I do intend to make amends. The map lists Simion mentioned above are indeed a mess, but it's a step in the right direction anyhow. When fixed up, it will be a great reference for me as a developer as well as for those browsing the Atlas.

EDIT: I have disabled the lists to prevent confusion and avoid ugliness while I work out how to fix the code.
EDIT2: List orders are fixed, after a surprisingly frustrating epic coding marathon.

As for the other issues (erratic button/layer behaviour, etc.) I'll be sure to check that out expeditiously, also.

EDIT: It looks as though a rough object layout layer I left on the server may have caused the issues. I'll remove it now, and replace with individually positioned objects when time permits.

[Qyzbud]

A little sign that I'm pressing on with this project... I've skipped over a couple of DKC's levels (rest assured, they will soon be mapped also!) to bring you the start of Rocket Barrel Ride's map. No bananas or objects just yet, but I've done some fancy layering to allow the waterfall effects to display accurately amongst the terrain - just toggle the FG2 button to see what I'm on about.

[Simion32]

Keep up the great work, Qyzbud!!

The rather simple but fancy additive layering effect looks sweet.

I'll have you know that DKC3 Level Terrain extraction is hidden somewhere in my research pipeline at the moment...

[TheUltimateKoopa]

So has the entire mapping project been scrapped, or is it still going on, but this topic's just not being used?

[Simion32]

Well I at least know I'm still carrying my end of the torch. I've got no idea what Qyzzy's been doing these days.

It will be a while before I get back into DKC3 as I'm heavy into DELTA at this time. But I assure you, if Qyzbud doesn't make the maps first, I'll definitely be having extraction of these terrains relatively soon (again, no estimates - my schedule is like a rolled-up ball of double-ended rubber bands. anything could happen).

[Qyzbud]

You'd all be forgiven for thinking the mapping project (and the site in general) was dead... it's been something like 20 months since I last posted a mapping update, and in fact it's almost exactly three years to the day since I last updated the first post of this topic... but I've swept the dust and cobwebs from my mapping desk, and today present to you the (almost!)...

...fully animated map of Oil Drum Alley!

That's right, Kremkroc Industries Inc. is finally getting some real mapping love, and Atlas development is back on track. Let me know what you think, and if there's anything I need to fix...

My mapping techniques may be a little rusty...

[Simion32]

The animation is lookin' sharp. You can probably reuse those GIFs now that they're made.

--------------------------
I hope you can stay around here more, Qyzzy, so you can work on all these really good updates you keep talking about.

It gets sort of vacant around the Atlas without you here all the time. I should know, I visit here every single day I have a chance.

I have to keep up with those darn spam bots too - I think Jomingo disappeared a few months ago, or maybe it's just me.

[Super Luigi!]

I agree with Simion32; you're as great as ever when it comes to mapping DKC!

[Qyzbud]

Thanks guys, and yes; I'll definitely be around more - both as a developer, and as an active member of the forum.

Thanks to you especially, Simion, for all you do to keep things going smoothly when I can't be here... and of course for the even more incredible projects you're working on, which make my mapping job easier and more accurate.

[Stone]

It is nice to see that the site development is moving on again.
And I'm really looking forward for the things to come in the next months!

The factory levels are definately one of my favourites in visual style and also music.
Apropos music:
It would be cool to have the option to switch on the corresponding music in the map viewer.
If there is no excessive bandwith usage or copyright infridgement involved, of course!

[Tompa]

Awesome, Qyz! I'm very glad to finally see some sort of update from you. ODA looks very nice, of course. I'm awaiting the next glory map, or anything else you are working in.

[Simion32]

It would be cool to have the option to switch on the corresponding music in the map viewer.
If there is no excessive bandwith usage or copyright infridgement involved, of course!

For music you would require SPC files, a direct dump of sound processor data. Infringing? Eh, I don't know but I don't think it's all that bad (there's game music posted all over YouTube and it's not gone).

You'd need some way of playing that SPC through the javascript (or just plain Java) interface. I cannot think of anything else. But practically you need an SNES sound emulator somewhere, so it's a little far-out for a mapping goal.

RE or LB wouldn't have any problem with playing sounds while you edit, by the way...

[Qyzbud]

Thanks for not giving up on me, guys.

Stone/Simion, I've long wanted to have level music playable as a Map Viewer option. SPC playback would be ideal in a few ways (and I have looked into this, but not for quite some time), but it's becoming increasingly more acceptable to stream more common (but decidedly less bandwidth-friendly) audio formats, like MP3. Practically everyone has a generous broadband connection these days, and my server should be able to keep up with the demand, so I may just take the MP3 (or OGG, etc.) approach. In fact, I'll aim to trial a simple BGM playback option this week.

Tompa, thanks for the kind words as always - I won't let you down.

[Simion32]

Remember that I have a perfectly edited DKC soundtrack (with loopable "part 2" sections as applicable). I could compress down the Fear Factory track (it's one segment) so you can give it a try (this is exact recorded audio from the real SNES system, too).

Name the format and I can get it uploaded here if you want.

[Kingizor]

The MP3 spec requires a small section of silence at the beginning and end of the file which is automatically included by most programs when it it saved or created. This makes is unsuitable for audio that is intended to loop seamlessly.

I ran into that problem in a project I had to do a while back in Adobe Flash, which only allowed either MP3 or WAV, so I ended up having to use the latter.. I think in most cases an alternative format like OGG should work fine.

[Simion32]

Actually I believe some programs manually insert their own silence as the file plays back if it's not already there. WinAMP does not do this.

This isn't really the right place to argue about or discuss music formats - I'd say OGG is the only practical choice Qyzbud has because WAV is far too large and FLACs would still suck down too much bandwidth. That or a java SPC player is about the only reasonable option(s).

P.S. Check out FormatFactory - this is a great little conversion program.

[Qyzbud]

Ah, that's right... I've been wondering what 'perfect source' I would call on for the music - yours would most likely be ideal, Simion. Would you be able to send a Fear Factory loop my way in OGG format? Perhaps just upload it to the Atlas server via FTP if that's no trouble. Thanks. I'm still looking into an ideal format to use for looping, but OGG seems a good option so far - especially if what kingizor says about MP3s being padded by silence becomes a problem. I've run into that issue before with looping/gapless playback, etc... so I want to avoid that. I've also had success with looping MP3s, so I'm sure it'd be fine either way, but I think OGG has the most benefits (size/quality ratio, open format, etc.) - especially since these particular audio files aren't really destined for download into someone's music collection.

Thanks for the info either way, guys.

Note: I'll probably split this discussion off into another topic at some point, as it's essentially a separate site feature, rather than actually a part of the mapping project.

[Simion32]

It's uploaded now - I created a qyzbud folder, so it should be easy to find.

I didn't want to sacrifice too much quality, and it ended up just under a MB. The quality in that single MB is rather seamless, though!

FLAC: 7.93 MB
OGG: 921 KB

[Qyzbud]

Thanks for that; audio quality and file size are great.

I've got a very basic player up and running (on my local server), but a few things surprise me; firstly, Chrome doesn't seem to play nice with Ogg files*. I find this a little baffling, and it may be something I'm doing wrong at my end, but all it means is that (for now) I'll have an MP3 as an alternate source file. Or maybe I'll just work with MP3, if it's better supported. Will work it out as I go.

Also, it might be the Ogg encoding, but the file you sent me didn't seem like a perfect loop; it was pretty damn close, but I think it might have been slightly trimmed, as the track ended slightly before it should have, so the loop kicked in a fraction of a second early.

Can you maybe check the Ogg at your end to see if you can hear what I mean?


*FIXED! It was an issue at my end; I forgot I need to 'authorise' new file types with the way I've set up the site.

[Simion32]

WinAMP plays it (the ogg) perfectly fine, with absolutely ZERO gap and no skipped section either - right on the dot. It's something wrong with your OGG audio player.

It is indeed a perfect loop. If I really have to, I can upload you the FLAC and you can see for yourself...

[Qyzbud]

I imported the Ogg file into Adobe Audition, which I've used for around a decade (back when it was known as Cool Edit), and have always found to be incredibly accurate to work with. I do my edits and looping at a zoom where you can see/adjust the individual dots (samples) that make up the waveform. Winamp is great for playback (and indeed - your loop sounds spot on in Winamp), but that can be a problem from a purist's point of view, in that it tends to make things sound good (track transitions, volume levels, etc.) when they are actually not so good. Depending on your settings, Winamp eliminates silence at the beginning/end of tracks to do gapless playback, normalises volume from track to track, and other such things... great for playback, not so great for troubleshooting questionable source files.

With all of that said, maybe Audition's Ogg import facility is less than perfect. I'll look into this further.

Thanks again; looping this Ogg in Winamp, as I'm doing right now, is indeed a treat.

[Qyzbud]

The Oil Drum Alley map now has a level music player! It's not set to preload or autoplay the music at this stage, as that might be a bit invasive (and undesirable from a loading time/bandwidth point of view) for some users, but I plan to have autoplay as an option once I enable a user preferences system on the Atlas.

Simion, It looks like Audition was at fault. Not sure why it can't open/import the whole loop, but that's okay - I'm happy with the Ogg you uploaded. Would you be able to upload a few more loops? Jungle, cave and underwater level music would be a great start, but I'm keen to get all of them, now that I've got a basic playback system set up for the LMV. So far, it's only designed to play the looped section of each level's music, but I know how to upgrade it to allow a loop to play after an intro, so I'll give that a whirl if you could also upload an intro section or two.

Also, would you be able to upload MP3 versions at some point, if need be? I don't think Internet Explorer and Safari support Ogg, so I'll probably need to offer MP3s to support those browsers. I could probably just convert the Oggs with FormatFactory or something similar, but lossy conversions always lose a bit of quality, which I'd like to avoid.

[Gaz]

You are so awesome!

[Simion32]

It's not set up to loop yet, either.

Converting and uploading, they should be up momentarily... done.

The Jungle track seems to have been edited with the whole track playing before the repeat loop. I'll have to go fix that...

EDIT: In the meantime, I've uploaded some of the smaller "jingle" tracks, Treetop Rock, and Misty Menace.

[Qyzbud]

Thanks for all the tracks you've uploaded - much obliged!

Oil Drum Alley's music is looping just fine for me in Chrome - has been for hours! You use Firefox though, right? I'll have to check it out across all browsers to see what I can do to optimise the experience.

[Qyzbud]

Alright, I've been working away at the LMV to add level music as an option, and it's finally ready to share. I've enabled the music player on all of Kongo Jungle's levels.

Jungle Hijinxs - Ropey Rampage - Reptile Rumble - Coral Capers - Barrel Cannon Canyon

...and Expresso's Token Bonus, just for a bit of variety (and a quicker loading option for those on slow connections)

The rest of the levels are ready to have their music added, but I thought I'd better wait for some testing/feedback before I get too carried away.

The player interface is a bit clunky, I know... I'll improve it when I get a chance.

Let me know if you have any issues/questions/suggestions.


Note: I know the music playback looping isn't perfect - this is a limitation of all current browsers, as far as I know. I'll be working to improve this, if at all possible.

[Simion32]

There appears to be html elements stealing focus from the players. I am not able to active the small player, and I have to click the very top of the arrow for the other player to work.

[Qyzbud]

Okay, I think I've fixed the issue Firefox was having. I had resized the width of both HTML5 audio elements (the 'players'), and in Chrome (and other browsers, I believe) this was fine... but it seems that Firefox made the controls shrink height-wise, too - even though this wasn't visually apparent. I think it's safe to say this was a Firefox bug, but it was easy to overcome; all I had to do was explicitly state the height of the audio elements. Now they are aligned neatly, and the controls are responsive.

Let me know how they go for you.